Emma Hayes on the difference between the experience of menβs and womenβs football
@atouchmore This dopamine versus cortisol conversation might just change the way you think πβ½οΈ
β¬ original sound - A Touch More - A Touch More
Emma Hayes on the difference between the experience of menβs and womenβs football
@atouchmore This dopamine versus cortisol conversation might just change the way you think πβ½οΈ
β¬ original sound - A Touch More - A Touch More
We did a podcast that asks this question, which I think might be one of the most interesting marketing stories in British sport currently.
I grew up in a deeply unfashionable bit of north west London. Cricket was our thing and Lords was our Disneyland. So I love Lords but I've always assumed it was unrequited. The MCC stands for many things, not many of them related to the 21st century. But it now owns a Hundred franchise. Which is a festival of inclusion.
I put it to Katie Maier, CMO of the MCC, that there's another brand route. To forego social inclusivity, which is a crowded fight that MCC won't win. Instead they could own the privilege, here and abroad. Expensive, exclusive, patrician. You're Lord's ffs, don't fight it.
Her answer is brilliant. And quite revealing.
A big bit of the answer is on Jonny Bairstow's shirt. Barclays wouldn't pay to be associated with the men-only MCC of Plum Warner.
Use them as a proxy for banks and other big spending categories, and you get a weird dynamic. It's the banks that want to push sport's organisations to be more progressive. The Woke Bank. Why? 2008, the financial crisis. In their marketing at least, the banks have been apologising ever since. Bastard bankers and their bonuses etc.

The podcast is here:
Charlie Sale was an early guest on Unofficial Partner.
He told a great story about him and the cricketer Ian Bell.
That anecdote appears in the first chapter of Tim Percival's new book.
Tim is a listener to the podcast.
I've no idea whether he took the story from the podcast or heard it from another source.
It's Charlie Sale's story not mine.
He would've told it many times to many people.
We didn't sign exclusive anecdote rights.
Joey D'Urso bigged up Carla Bilche's series on the business history of the World Cup. It's really good and so I invited them both on for a chat.
I've read A LOT of stuff on the World Cup. Most of it is derivative, which is a nice word for copied, stolen, AI generated and obvious (which are four words that are really saying the same thing). By contrast, Carla's series asks some good questions. I fed Chat_UP Carla's series, and Joey's recent Substack output that points More Than A Shirt toward the World Cup.
That output is here:
Pre-Interview Briefing β The Politics & Economics of the World Cup
Series: Unofficial Partner Host: Richard Gillis Guests: Joey D'Urso (football & geopolitics; author, More Than A Shirt) and Carla Bilche (Off-Ball Logic; commercial history of the World Cup) Episode premise: Two writers who approach the same tournament from opposite ends β D'Urso reads it as politics wearing a shirt, Bilche reads it as a balance sheet wearing a shirt. The 2026 edition is where both readings collide.
Why this pairing works
D'Urso and Bilche are not natural duet partners, which is the point. D'Urso's instinct is to find the human and political residue buried in a fixture list β coloniser vs colonised, oil curses, hostage swaps. Bilche's instinct is to find the revenue architecture buried in an emotional moment β the 7-1, the Buenos Aires final, traced back to sponsorship tiers and broadcast portfolios. Put them together and the question becomes: is the World Cup a political object that has been monetised, or a commercial object that borrows political meaning? Neither would fully accept the other's framing, and that tension is the episode.
The unifying thread is that both are documenting the same shift from different angles: the tournament moving from something that belonged to publics toward something packaged for premium buyers. D'Urso sees it in the geopolitics of who gets to play and who gets to host; Bilche sees it in the ICP moving from the fan to the corporate hospitality buyer. The 2026 tri-host structure (US/Mexico/Canada, 48 teams, 104 matches) is the live test case for both.
Guest one: Joey D'Urso β the politics layerThe work
What he actually argues
The fixture list is a Rorschach test for five centuries of empire, war, and migration. A few representative reads from his own list:
The contrarian angle for the room
D'Urso's project is charming and viral, which is exactly why it's worth pressing. The hard question: does the political reading actually matter to anyone inside the commercial machine, or is it decorative β a content layer that travels well on Instagram precisely because it has no commercial consequence? Bilche's own framework offers ammunition here: she argues the internet made emotional stakes "legible in minutes, without context or history." If rivalry no longer needs geopolitical backstory to travel, is D'Urso documenting something load-bearing or something nostalgic?
Questions for D'Urso
Obvious (warm-up):
Second-order (challenge): 3. Your project is adjacent to the commercial tournament, not inside it. Is the political meaning of the World Cup now just another piece of shoulder content β like a Netflix podcast or a creator clip β that FIFA is happy to let circulate because it costs them nothing and adds texture? 4. FIFA's defenders argue the brand is "bulletproof" β sponsors stayed through FIFAGate, through Russia, through Qatar. If the politics genuinely mattered commercially, wouldn't we see it in the sponsor ledger? Does your work prove the politics are loud but powerless? 5. 2026 is hosted by an administration creating real friction around borders and the free movement of fans. That's not historical politics β it's live political risk sitting on top of the tournament. Is this the first World Cup where the host's current politics threaten the event rather than just colour its backstory? 6. You write about shirts as the carrier of meaning. Bilche argues the shirt has stopped being about the team β blokecore, the Argentina three-star kit selling in markets with no Argentine connection. Has the shirt been hollowed out as a political object precisely as it's been maximised as a commercial one?
Guest two: Carla Bilche β the economics layerThe work
Off-Ball Logic, a five-part series on the commercial history of the World Cup, framed around four eras:
The killer numbers
The contrarian core
Bilche's thesis is darker than the numbers suggest. Her real argument is about a widening gap between commercial logic and emotional logic β the thing that made the tournament worth monetising in the first place. The 7-1 and the Buenos Aires final still produce genuine collective feeling, but "the internet that made the co-authorship possible also made the machinery visible." The audience can now see exactly what they're watching, and most keep watching anyway β but "the relationship changed."
The fragility angle
She's also the one with the risk case, which is gold for a sceptical audience:
Questions for Bilche
Obvious (warm-up):
Second-order (challenge): 3. You compare FIFA to Apple β a vertically integrated product company. But Apple owns its supply chain. FIFA's "product" depends on 211 federations, three governments, and players it doesn't employ. Is the SaaS metaphor flattering FIFA, or exposing how much of its empire is rented? 4. If the ideal customer is now the corporate hospitality buyer, not the fan β at what point does the emotional foundation stop subsidising the commercial architecture and start being actively repelled by it? Is there a number where the gap breaks? 5. Your fragility layer is striking: insurance covering 7% of exposure, security money landing twelve weeks out. Are you describing a one-off (a uniquely messy tri-host) or the permanent condition of a tournament that's grown too big to insure? 6. D'Urso finds politics as history in the fixtures. You find politics as live operational risk in the funding. Whose politics actually move the money β the colonial backstory, or the Congressional appropriation?
Cross-examination: where to put them in tension
These are the moments to let them disagree on air.
Three LinkedIn-ready framings (post-record)
One thing to avoid
Both guests are strong writers with tidy frameworks, which means the risk is two parallel monologues. The job is to make them metabolise each other's category β get D'Urso costing his politics and Bilche politicising her costs. The episode is good if, at least once, each concedes the other is describing something their own framework can't fully account for.
I listened to Moral Maze does FIFA on Radio 4 and it made me want to self harm. I recently bought Japanese kitchen knives so this can now be achieved effectively. The pomposity was one thing, the wanting to make clever sounding points about the soul of the game and protecting the fan, and then the chummy laughter when someone makes a shit football pun. It was like when the House of Lords does sport. So much grandstanding and look at me point scoring.
Worse still though was the sheer obviousness of it.
Nobody tried to get into Infantino's head, to attempt to get to why he behaves, and is allowed to behave, in this way? What are the incentives in play that shape his decision making. What's the framework beyond the binary of moral amoral moral? The bit where we talk about the argument for making money out of an American World Cup, or of stemming leaks in the economy, so more of it is kept by the people who then spend it on the game around the world. There's a whole other conversation about the effectiveness on the spend side, of political vote buying and 'what happens to the all the money' in the distribution across FAs.
Ok, this was the moral maze, but it did make me wonder if this is how they treat every subject, the stuff I know nothing about but am taking them on their word that they've done the homework. It's why podcasts exist. Or did initially at least.
A big night at the Big Belly Club on the South Bank. And a subject we don't do often.
The business of horse racing was the heading. The resulting podcast is out today.

There's a bit in the middle, where I make a trite statement about how power works and why change is so hard, and Brant Dunshea the CEO of the British Horseracing Authority puts me quietly in my place. 'Gosh Richard, I'd never have known that'.
It made me really laugh listening back to it in the edit.
"Analysing humour is like dissecting a frog. Nobody laughs and the frog dies." Barry Cryer, by way of E.B. White.
Chelsea's social team put out some #bantz in the moments after Arsenal's lost the UEFA Champions League final penalty shoot out.

It did the job, if the job was irritating Arsenal fans and making Chelsea look a bit small.
A while later, the fun police got hold of Chelsea's social account and posted an apology.

Like Richard Nixon...(bit of an overreach but bear with)...the apology was more revealing than the initial 'crime'. Between the two posts, the joke and the apology, lies Chelsea's tone of voice, which is odd because it's quite a big gap.